Rediscovering Her Authentic Self and a Daughter Given Up After a Secret Teenage Pregnancy

 This is the Humancraft Podcast, and I'm your host, Beth Huddleston. Today's guest is Judy Liautaud. Judy is the author of two memoirs, one titled Sunlight on My Shadow, A Birth Mother's Journey from Secrecy to Renewal, and the second titled South of Ordinary, A Moving Tale of Young Love and Self Discovery.

She's also the author and publisher of several children's educational books through her publishing company, City Creek Press, including Times Tables the Fun Way, Addition the Fun Way, and Story Problems the Fun Way. 

In our interview, we discuss Judy's secret teen pregnancy, the pain and grief of giving up her baby for adoption, the healing and joy of finding and meeting her daughter decades later and other ways in which she has healed and transformed throughout her life journey.   

Judy, welcome to the podcast. Hey, thanks for having me, Beth. Thanks for being here you have two books. You have one called Sunlight on My Shadow and the other one, South of Ordinary. And both of these are memoirs. One, Sunlight on My Shadow, talking about when you were, became pregnant as a teenager and had to go away to a home for unwed mothers and give your baby up for adoption.

And then South of Ordinary, Your young adulthood with your husband, traveling, trying to navigate new marriage and  dreams and all of that. So I want to start with, let's start with, you know, your depiction of what was going on in your life in sunlight on my shadow, your younger years.

I think your story is a really, a really interesting one that you had this experience and just sort of all of the, all of the complexities of that.

So let's start a little bit with when you first discovered that you were pregnant, you went through, let's say, you know, quite an emotional experience. Let's talk about your reaction. What was your reaction and how did you sort of handle those first months of, of realizing that? 

Well, in my mind, getting pregnant, going to an all girls Catholic school, was probably the worst thing I could have done. It was like, I murdered someone. I mean, I, it was so, it was such a horror that I didn't get my period. I kept checking. I'd go to the bathroom all the time when I was in school and hoping, you know, that I'd find the good red news.

And it was just very traumatic. Horrible. You know, it's probably the worst thing that I could have done. And in my mind. And probably a lot of other people's minds and,  yeah, it was the hardest time of my life and keeping that secret, not talking to anyone for five months was super, deadening  to my spirit. You talk about in the memoir that you really, I mean, you really kind of almost froze up. You know, we sometimes hear about this in the news where a teenager really doesn't tell anyone and keeps it total secret. And then the parents find out later and they're shocked and everybody's like, how, how does that happen?

But I think that there is something going on emotionally must be, that is almost like a frozen fear that is almost paralyzing. Well, you know, I couldn't. Uh, I thought, what should I do, you know? Should I go to a doctor and talk to him? I had too much shame to tell anyone. And I just kept hoping that I was gonna miscarry.

Cause I've heard that, I don't know, 1 in 5 miscarry or something like that. And so I just kept hoping. I just didn't know what to do. I mean, that, that was the worst part, you know, keeping it secret.  My boyfriend was the only one that knew about it. And,  then finally I just got so big that I had to tell somebody.

So I told my best friends and then, I told my sister and then she said, well, we have to tell mom and dad and I'm, oh, no, I thought maybe she could somehow help me without having to tell them. I didn't know what, what that would be. But after that happened, I was much, I was so relieved because I knew there'd be an answer and something would happen  I've attended some birth conferences for women that, like me, that had their babies, you know, secretly. And it's so severe that a couple stories I've heard. They don't tell anybody and then they  give birth in the bathroom or go somewhere without telling anyone.

I mean, that's how big the shame is and the fear of it. Yeah. That's what I, can see it as and thank goodness you did, thank goodness you did tell your sister. And she. Told your parents because at the bottom line of it, you were 16 years old.

You're a 16-year-old kid. Yeah. And you know when that happens to a 16-year-old kid, that this is a huge thing. And like you said, the deep shame about that.  The idea of just like sitting down and telling your parents is not something that comes to mind. Probably. It just doesn't come to mind right away.

I was just too scared. I just couldn't, you know, I'd look at my dad at the dinner table and think, Oh, I should tell him, you know, I just couldn't, I just couldn't . And so when they did find out, I will say this  is that, you didn't always have warm treatment. You didn't have warm treatment when you went to the home for unwed mothers, but your parents did, at least from your memoir sound like they were as kind as they could be about it, considering that they were disappointed and upset and all of that, but, but didn't necessarily try to lay on the shame a lot harder. Would you say that's accurate? Well, I love that you have that perspective because people have said to me, Oh, the way your dad treated you, that was horrible. And that hurts my heart because that's not what I wanted to convey. He was angry when he heard about it, and then once it was a done deal and we knew what we were going to do, he was, he never, you know, once he said to me, Judy, how could you have done that?

When we were on the way to the doctor's. But after that, they never, we didn't talk about it and he never laid on any more shame. So that was good. That was, I commend them for that, you know. Yeah. And it's, it's not like, I'm not saying, of course, it wasn't like it was perfect or something. 

And like you said, if you didn't talk about it at all, that is its own maybe level of discomfort or something. But at least considering they were very religious and that it was considered a very bad thing to do, that they didn't come down harder on you. You had enough shame. Yeah, my mom, you know, said, it's all my fault.

I wasn't there for you because she was in and out of the hospital a lot. She had rheumatoid arthritis and I thought, oh, it's not your fault, mom, you know. It would have happened anyway, probably. I don't know. But there was no communication with my parents about dating or sex. It was just like it was something that I was not supposed to do and I wasn't even supposed to date until I was 16.

I used to sneak out and go in my boyfriend's car and I would have gotten in huge trouble and so, It was just,  I mean, that's the damage that's done with lack of communication. You know, if I'd have been closer with my parents, but they weren't the type. But you know, I know my daughter's relationship with her kids is so different where they talk about things that are personal. But there is so much shame and so much Catholic mandates that we'd never went there, you know. Yeah. So that's why they were so surprised that I was pregnant, yeah, that I think that is true. I think there's like the not communicating at all, there also wasn't protection available for you  birth control or anything. And you're just a teenage kid and I think there's a lot of layers to that. Well, my boyfriend did have a rubber and it broke.

And so, you know, we did have, we did have that. We did have condoms, but,  unfortunately, it broke.  And I always thought he probably had it in his pocket for two years waiting for it to use it.  I mean, I knew very well how you get pregnant, and I was super scared of it, but, yeah.

So then you basically did come up with a, well, I will say your dad came up with a plan because your dad sounds like he was a guy who would come up with a plan anytime one is needed. Like if there's a problem, I think your dad was the guy, you know, I might be frustrated from it.

I'll figure out a plan. So he did figure out a plan, uh, you know, get you to the doctor, confirm it, get you to this home for unwed mothers. So let's talk about that experience. I mean, there were plenty of other girls there with you at the time. I'm sure there's a lot of these homes I've heard of throughout the country.

So that experience, let's talk about that a little bit. What was that like for you? Oh, well, let me back up just a second. When my dad got me to go to the doctor initially, he said, you're going to have an abortion. Cause he had no idea that I was that far along. He couldn't imagine I could be that far along.

And so I was feeling my baby move inside my belly and it scared me so bad. And so, then of course when we went to the doctor, the doctor said, no, she's too far along. So then we came up with the plan. So anyway, the home for unwed mothers was, Well, first of all, I lived for two months with my parents friends in Waupaca, Wisconsin.

 I didn't see anybody. I could go out, I had a car, I could go out shopping. But I didn't have any friends, didn't talk to anybody at all. And so when it came time to go to the home for unwed mothers, I was kind of excited because I would have kids. People my age to talk to and things so,  I don't know how many girls were there.

Maybe there were 10 or 12 And we slept on cots in kind of it was kind of like 

And,  then we would go to the dining hall for dinner, and my job, everybody had a job, my job was to wash these giant pots, I had to do the dishes, and I remember barely being able to get over to, you know, to reach the pots, because my belly was so big, and They told us not to make friends.

Because this was something slice in our life and we don't want to continue talking to people later. And I was called Judy L. Nobody knew that my last, what my last name was. Everybody was sarah M. or, you know, and,  just so much shame around that. And then one time we went out to a bookstore and the owner said to us when we're looking at the cards on the

on the rack. We don't patronize your kind. And so I was so shocked and it was an order to get out of the store, you know, that we weren't welcome. That was probably the lowest point of the discrimination against us. And that was really hard. Yeah, that was, that was a,  It was clear to me in reading your book that that moment when you, you know, you young girl, pregnant girls are in the store and the store owner says this to you and it's just kind of really looking at you in a hateful way and actually saying, you know, I don't, I'm so disgusted or whatever.

I don't want you in this store. Yeah. You know, like for a young kid and you hadn't experienced anything like that in your life. And it seems like that just really stood out for you, which is understand it's like a sense of injustice that like a stark difference from what you had experienced in your life to that moment.

Well, you know what it was is, um, a little bit of, um,  lack of white privilege. It was the first time in my life that I was discriminated against. against because of how I looked. And so  I, it was kind of an awakening or an enlightenment, like, wow. You know, I mean, that happens to black people all the time.

You know, and I had never been exposed to anything like that.  Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking because then it's like, it is, it is so, um, that, that sense of experiencing something that you can then understand and have more compassion for others. Because if you think of that happening repeatedly throughout someone's life, on a more racial basis and then what that, how that wears someone's soul down or, you know, this, so that's what it struck me as and I think you even mentioned that it, you know, helped you have more compassion after that for people who might be subjected to that unfairly.

So let's , let's talk a little bit about, growing up in an organized religion, in your case, it was Catholicism.

And then  As you got older,  let's talk about kind of the moment where you started to distance yourself from that more. How did that come about? Well, when I was pregnant, I prayed like a million rosaries. I just prayed so, and I said, Please make me not pregnant, please make Now that's kind of crazy when you think of it because nature had already taken over and I already was pregnant.

So it wasn't really up to God to change that. I mean, but you know, that's where my thinking was. But anyway, I felt kind of forsaken or like, That God disapproved of me or I disappointed him. I knew I did, you know, and then I think it was a couple years later when I started to think, well, maybe all the feeling so guilty about what I did was kind of a sham and maybe I don't have to be that, um, keep beating myself up, keep shooting arrows at myself for what I'd done.

Maybe that guilt that I learned from my Catholic upbringing was not useful to me anymore. And so, I think I started to just, I lost my faith. It just gradually, like, slipped away, so. And so, when you, when that happened, did you feel like you felt an absence? Of something that had been such a big part of your life?

Not right at the moment, but then later in my life, I really felt a hole, an absence. I love that feeling of being close to God and being holy and like when I would sit in mass and being connected and that he was taking care of me and so when you don't have that anymore, what do you look to?

What do you look to for that comfort? Like, everything's gonna be okay, that God would take care of you, that everything will be okay. That's a wonderful thing to have, that faith. Mm hmm. But if you don't have it, you can't manufacture it, you can't pretend. I guess you can, they say, fake it till you make it, but it hasn't really worked for me.

I, I do feel spiritual, like I'm spiritual, but the God that I was raised with in the Catholic religion who was, sits in judgment and is disapproving of what I do and has in mind what I should do. I just, I can't, I don't buy that anymore. So. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I think I, I can understand and relate to the fact that.

When you said you can't manufacture it, it's not like, Oh, I can just tell myself, go back to that, go back to that belief. It's if it's lost, it's lost. But like you're saying, I think you've had experiences and you talk about in,  South of ordinary as well, your other memoir that you have experiences that feel spiritual in their own way.

And I'm going to jump back just a bit because when you were talking about, you know, praying the rosaries to God and feeling forsaken, I jumped to kind of a big picture view, a big picture view where it's like, if it feels like he's forsaken you, but God or, or some sort of universal energy or whatever in spirituality, whatever  you want to believe.

If you believe that there's like some, some sort of all loving, all knowing, whatever presence, it doesn't mean that you're forsaken. It could be an experience that maybe is  📍  learning experience that benefits you or a gift to someone else by putting this baby up for adoption.

I'm just throwing things out there. But like, if you look at it from a big picture view, you're saying, oh, this horrible thing's happening to me, but it's like also could be maybe meant to happen or good to happen. Does that make sense? Well, yeah, exactly. I mean, I think at the end of my book, that's what I, you know, okay, I did this horrible thing, but really, you know what?

I gave the gift of life to this beautiful child and how great is that? And so I thought, well, maybe her parents were supposed to have her to raise her up and But see that's that's just relying back on my faith that I don't have but  I still think there's  There's I can't you can't just get rid of all of your teachings You know, they're still there and I still pray and I don't know exactly who I'm praying to But I believe and if you believe something and you send out that energy  prayers are answered.

So yeah, so see there, it is interesting. There's  None of these things have to have a label. And I think you and I both agree that it's like, there's nothing wrong with believing any of it but just, you know, it's what everybody can experience as true for themselves and there's only what's true for them and you can't create something that isn't there for you anymore, but you can experience whatever you do now.

Right, right. And if your belief is helpful to you, and you get comfort from your beliefs. That's beautiful. Exactly. Exactly. So, I do want to talk about that though, when you mentioned bringing this beautiful baby into the world and you did end up finding her after quite a long search later in life and that she did have wonderful parents. Let's talk about when you did find her.

And you first learned of her being there and then met her. What were all the sort of mixed emotions that you experienced upon meeting her? It was so confusing, Beth.  I had this intense love and desire to meet her for, you know, ever since she was born. I thought I had Fantasies of going to the playground in Milwaukee where she lived and seeing if I could find little kids that look like my daughter and I just, I really wanted to meet her because I had wished that I had held her when she was born but I didn't, but finally I got her information through  this searcher who went through all the birth certificates in the county and matched up The one that was born at 1:10 p. m. on my daughter's birth date and So we knew that was her because back then when you gave a baby up for adoption you did not know who the parents were and they changed the name.

And on this birth certificate, the parents are the only parents.  I'm not named or anything. So, I sent her a letter and she agreed to meet with me. And when I saw her, I just wanted to hug her and kiss her and say, Oh, my long lost baby. I'm so glad I found you. You know, it was like, such a miracle. But she didn't have any of those feelings because she didn't have that loss.

She didn't experience that loss because she had great parents. And so I couldn't, I couldn't just  gush  all over her, but it was really healing to meet her and know that she Had a good life because I'd heard of other children that were adopted who went to parents that were Alcoholics or abused them Whatever.

So I was really lucky that way Yeah, that is really and she sounds like she's just like a wonderful person as well. So yeah So that's a joy. She's a nurse and there's a lot of medical people in my family and she Came to my wedding when I got remarried 18 years ago and everybody was well,  Karen, you know, fawning over because she was my daughter.

And um, it was, it was kind of fun. Yeah. Yeah. So that was a really happy ending is as happy as that could be really in that, in those circumstances, because I can imagine a lot of people in your position don't ever get to meet. They don't, have never had the chance to meet. That baby, and if they've had those longings and I don't see how there wouldn't be grief about having to let that baby go.

And yeah. And let's jump to that because you know, at that time when you're 16 and this is the plan that you're following that your dad has laid down and you talk about in your book, like that looking at her through that glass when she was, after she was born and wanting to hold her, but being afraid to hold her because.

You were afraid you wouldn't be able to let her go and all, all of those emotions and some of the girls did hold their babies. I mean, that's intense. That's intense stuff to then have to let the baby go. So I really feel like there's gotta be such a grief and a lot of women who've gone through that have got to feel that.

That just carries through their life, I would imagine. Cause for you, it sounds like it, it did and maybe could lay dormant at times, but then would come up. Yeah, well, your first baby, you just, don't really have any clue of how, when that baby's born, how you're gonna fall in love with it.  It's just so intense, and that surprised me.

I didn't expect that. I thought I could just put it in my past and go back to school and everything's fine, but she was so beautiful. I wanted her so bad. It's so unnatural to say, here, take my baby. Mm hmm. So what, what do you think were the most healing things that happened to you in your adult life to deal with that grief or, you know, any other sort of, your mom, like you mentioned, she was very ill for a lot of your childhood.

She was in and out of the hospital. She was in a wheelchair cause she had such bad arthritis. And in that sense too, there was probably some pain there and then, you know with the secret around your pregnancy and the grief of losing your baby And all of that like as an adult finding little places to find healing What are some of the ones that stand out to you?

Well meeting Karen was a big one and probably Well therapy I've had it I was in a class and and one exercise, there were like four of us. It was a group therapy thing. I forget what the name of it was. I, I can't even, I can't believe I'm remembering this. But, so what she had us do, you know, I was saying that I felt so bad how I had let my father down and the shame and stuff.

And so what we did in the exercise was, She put a chair there, and she said imagine that's your father sitting in the chair, and then I talked to him and I did and I told him you know I was so sorry and What I got back from my dad was that it was okay that he forgave me and that he understood And I just, I, it wasn't in real life.

It was all imaginary, you know, but I felt like I really connected with my dad during that session. And that was a huge healing because I hated to disappoint my dad. I just, you know, he was the kind of guy that you always wanted to do the right thing and I felt like he understood. Although we'd never, while he was alive and my mom was alive, we never talked about it once after I came back from the home for unwed mothers.

And Then they both died, I felt like I could write the book because I think they wouldn't have approved of me bringing all this up that they kept so carefully secret, secretized.  Yeah, you know, but when you're telling me that having this experience as if your father sitting there in the chair and I can imagine That seems like it could have been real because I can imagine your dad would, if he were sitting there now, would be like, I forgive you.

You know, you were a teenager, you did this thing. It's okay.  Doesn't that seem real to you? Like if you can imagine yourself in your dad's head, in your dad's perspective looking at his little daughter who did this. Don't you think that makes sense?

Yeah, it seems very real because well, my dad had the uh, stern, facade that you always do the right thing, but deep down he'd been through a lot of trauma himself and I think he would understand. He understood and yeah, it felt real. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I can see that.

I can definitely see that. And, and just if it was your own child and all that like that. And that's the other thing is when you did go to the home for unwed mothers It was wow, like I mean it was a punishing experience from my reading of it in your memoir that coldness that was displayed and I understand that You know, from the nun's perspective that you had done something very sinful, but  you're thinking of like these little 16 year old kids, sleeping on cots,  you have no clue what it's going to be like the labor.

You have no one talking to you or comforting you. And when you describe your labor scene that went on and on and on for hours and hours and hours, and you're all by yourself in there, I mean, really almost entirely by herself in a room. That was tough. That's, that sounds like that was very tough. I was very frightened.

Yeah. Yeah. And I can just really imagine, because when you said that part about  that you think, Oh, there's gotta be something wrong because this pain is so horrible that it feels like something very terrible is happening and maybe this is not normal.  I can imagine, I can imagine that's how it must feel.

And then you're a scared little kid and no one's in there to help you. So yeah, that, that was sad. What are your thoughts now when you look back on it?

Uh, Well, I mean, people have said to me your mom should have been there with you or your sister Somebody should have been there with you. Maybe but why why go there? Why say they failed me? You know, I mean, it just, it just was what is, but it didn't have to be that traumatic if there was someone, if there was a doula or somebody, but I, I think what happened with that experience was that when I had my own babies, I had them at home and because I had two children after I gave away Karen.

And I wanted to, I just had this real yearning to make birth better for women. Because I saw how horrible it could be and how beautiful it could be with a home birth. And that, that was healing, probably having my own babies too. And so I did become a lay midwife for seven years. And I think that experience, kind of was a key to me being interested in helping other people, women, have better experiences.

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. So let's jump to when you, you got a little older, you were a young adult and you met who became your first husband, Dave, and in South of Ordinary, your second memoir, You talk about, he had these dreams to travel the world and, and they were really kind of both of your dreams is what you thought at the time, but you you know, flesh that out throughout the memoir and coming to terms with what you really wanted or what he really wanted.

But I do think that's a common thing. I do think that's a common thing. Being young and maybe coming out of trauma or whatever, and then not being able to decipher one's own inner voice from outside influences, and I think that's just a common experience. So I do want to talk about that a little bit.

When you,  when you did travel around the world with him, I don't think you were really enjoying it. I don't think you really wanted to do it. But you at that time, consciously, is it correct that you consciously thought you did? Yeah. Yeah,  I thought I was choosing this. Right, right. And in a sense I was choosing it.

 But I had a lot of resistance, like, Oh, I wish I was at our cabin in Colorado, fixing it up. I love that homey feeling of being in one place, being able to, that's my favorite thing in the world is to fix up the place I live in. And so I would have a lot of.  and dreams while we were traveling of, Oh, how great it's going to be when we get back.

And it was hard to be right, you know, enjoying the moments. But talk about why you think that you did take that on as your own dream and consciously thought it was what you wanted at the time. Well, Dave was the perfect guy. I mean, he just, He had no regrets. He had no shame. He always thought he was right.

He thought, you got to live life and take risks and why sit on the couch and Be a couch potato, you know, get out and see the world. And I loved that. That was just so attractive to me, especially after I tried so hard to fit in and be part of society and do the right thing and I failed miserably.

Just three years earlier when then when I met Dave and so he just He was kind of like the key or the answer to what I needed Yeah, so he said when I met him, he said I'm going on this trip, I'm planning to go around the world on this travel trip and So, you know We'll see what happens with our relationship because that's what I'm doing.

And so after a while I thought, oh, maybe he'll take me along with him. And so I kind of weaseled my way into that. So. Yeah, it's interesting though. I think, I am kind of fascinated with that whole thing because then I think in your fantasies that you're having of like being back home and making it nice and all this kind of stuff.

I think that's like, Probably your inner voice is like, Hey, you know, you, you probably want to be doing this instead of what you're doing right now, like that's, it's, it's popping up speaking up, you know, I, I mean, I'm fascinated with that because I think we are faced with so many pressures around us as humans.

So, you know, so many influences and. Pressures and the people around us and what they think, and it can be hard, it can be hard. And it sounds to me like in your memoirs that for you, it felt like a many year experience to tune in to your own wants and needs and things like that.

Because it is, it is hard in our society.  It was so foreign to me, you know, I was. I was always wanted to  please others and I didn't, like when I start thinking, Oh, I really don't want to travel. I think I want to just stay here. I just say, think, Oh, that's dumb. You know, you're just being a wimp. You should love adventure.

You're going to grow so much from this and you'll see other countries and. So you have these little thoughts of what your true desires are, but you don't allow 'em because it doesn't go along with what you've already decided you wanted to do.  Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, it does sound like you feel that you reached a point where you were able to get in touch though.

Yeah.  That you've gotten gotten to that place where you can get in touch with it. Yeah, with my life with Dave, and then that was when things kind of fell apart in our relationship. When you, you think at the point where you kind of got in touch with When I started to just not say whatever you want, you know, I had to kind of stick up for myself.

Yeah. Yeah. And maybe, yeah, maybe that just doesn't work. Sounds like it just didn't work in that relationship, but yeah. Yeah.  Well, I'm going to jump to something else cause I find, you know, you, you were a midwife, you and Dave had a hang gliding business. Like you, you have had quite a many experiences and then you got into writing educational kids books.

Tell me about that. These, these books that are designed just to be easy for kids to learn. Well, we were, Dave, my ex husband and I were, running a Sylvan Learning Center, which is, a place where kids come for extra help that need help in school. And so, The kids came to us, and we couldn't teach them anything because they didn't know their times tables.

How could you teach them how to do these math problems when they don't have the basics? So we decided to come up with little stories to So the first story we came up with was 8x8, and they were little snowmen. And they want to go camping, and they come to this, And there's a sign that says the sticks are for the fire.

And so sticks are for sounds like sixty four. So when they see the eights, they think snowmen. They go camping, sticks are for sixty four. So it's kind of like a mnemonic, uh, visual way to learn the times tables. And it ended up being wildly successful. We're still, I'm still selling the books. It's been 35 years.

It's called Times Tables the Fun Way. And then there's Addition the Fun Way and Story Problems the Fun Way and several support materials that go with that. And so I've been running that business for quite a while and sell mostly to teachers and parents and kids with learning differences really do well with it.

Wow. Like dyslexia and ADHD and. That's pretty cool. Yeah. It's citycreek. com if you want to look it up. City Creek Press, yeah. Yeah. So I do want to talk about the sort of dichotomy between, how that, that just huge secret of your pregnancy that you and your family kept and to the point where you and your parents didn't talk about it, as you mentioned, not even one time after you came back, from having the baby.

So. But there's this huge whopping secret and this huge shame that you carried with you about this experience. And then you get to the point in your life where you write a memoir about the experience. This is such a, you know, going from one extreme to the other. And this is what I see with a lot of people when they have, These, any kind of big experience that is a secret or shameful, and then they go along in their development and in their healing process.

And then they write about it in a way that is healing for them, but also can connect with other people who might need or want to hear some story like that. So what was that experience like for you writing the memoir what was the.

writing process like and how did that affect you?  I just had this yearning to write my story and I didn't know why or what, where that came from. I just wanted to write my story. So I started, writing and then the next day I would read what I wrote and I thought, oh my gosh, I can't ever let anyone read this, it's way too embarrassing.

And then I'd put it away and I'd quit and then a few days later I'd go, oh, I, you know, I prompted again to write. And so I realized as I was writing I would just, Tears would come and I started to understand that young child who was me, that teenager, and forgive her for what she'd done because I understood.

I understood when I, no wonder that happened, you know, given you were kind of set up for that whole thing.  Not that I didn't take responsibility, but I, I found forgiveness. And so, it was an amazingly healing experience for me, and it actually changed my life because I got rid of the shame. I can talk to anyone about it now.

I used to, when I'd bring it up or try to talk about it, my voice would shake and I couldn't really find the words.  I'd say, Oh, that happened to me, you know. This teenage pregnancy and then people would just drop it because they'd be embarrassed to ask me questions. I didn't know how to start talking about it, but writing the book was major.

And I just want to encourage anyone who has a story to write it just for your own self. I mean, I didn't know that I was going to publish it. I just wrote it. And then when it was done, I got excited about letting other people read it. Did you come across like reactions where people really got something out of it, connected with it?

Oh yeah, I've had emails from women who said, That's my story, but I've never told anyone. And it just breaks my heart that still, you know, I'm in my 70s, and that happened to me, but I never told anyone. Or I've gotten emails that say, you put into words exactly my experience.

And so that, I love that. That's so great. I mean, what can be better than that? That's worth all the writing right there to hear that, you know? yeah, yeah, I bet. That's what I was imagining so I think that covers everything that I wanted to ask you about, but please tell me if there's anything else that you want to make sure we talk about.

Well, your questions are really deep and make me think. Thank you. It was really fun to do. And I can't think of anything else. But thanks so much.

Yeah.  Thank you so much for being here and talking about all this stuff.

I really, really appreciate it.