Shining Light on Profound Aspects of the Mexican-American Experience

 Reyna, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you. I'm really excited to have you here, I've read both of your memoirs and I think they're just really, really movingly written about immigrating to the U. S. and then making a life in the U. S. and all of the issues that go along with that.

So I want to start a little bit at the beginning here.

Well, I want to start with the concept of immigration in terms of, What that really means, what sort of challenges are faced by people? This is something I've thought about for so many years and just how incredibly strong and how much fortitude it takes to immigrate to a new country. Where you don't speak the language, you don't necessarily know or understand the culture.

So when you, yourself or just the experience with your father, seeing what he had to face or your mother or anyone else around you, tell me a little bit about what are, what are some of those big challenges that someone faces when they arrive in the country?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, my experience was that of a child immigrant which I think it's very different from when adults migrate. And it's only now that I'm an adult and that I'm a mother, I'm able to really understand what my parents went through, you know, and, and I'm so grateful that as a parent, I'll never have to be in that situation.

It's, it's such a horrible situation to be in because, when you migrate, when you, when you have a family, you know, when you're a father, you're a mother, I feel that, being forced to leave your children or to bring them along with you. It's just such a terrible position to be in as a parent because neither choice is, it's a good choice, right?

 There's gonna be consequences with the family and consequences that will last a lifetime.  So obviously like, For me, one of the things to think about in terms of migration is to really understand that when people leave their homes, they have  basically been forced to do so, you know, it's not a decision that is taken lightly.

They're doing it because the circumstances had forced them to leave their homes. And so that's forced displacement that is happening around the world today, where people are being forced when they don't really have much of a choice, but to leave and leaving entails a lot of heartbreak, a lot of trauma because they're leaving behind everything they know,  their families, their homes, their communities, they're risking their lives to, to take on this, this journey where they really don't know what's gonna happen.

And obviously, you know, we know how difficult it is to make that journey to the border, just that journey alone, but then crossing over is, is yet another difficulty to encounter.  It's just heartbreaking to see how so many people have been dying during this crossing. And when migrants leave, I mean, they know, right? They know what they're in for. They know what they're going to face. And yet, there's always that hope. That maybe, just maybe, they will be able to make it safely, and they will be able  to get an opportunity to make a home here.

In your case, your father left first. And that was a situation where he was, you know, he couldn't, he couldn't make a life for the family that he would have wanted to in Mexico. So he left. And then that's a theme that you mentioned in your books is this family separation and you touched on it briefly here Is the parents separated from their children in two different countries sometimes, both spouses leave to send back to the family   it was really heartbreaking to read about that so in in your case in your experience  or what you saw with that in your own family or other families?

Is What kind of repercussions do you think that has when families are separated in that way? Well, what I write about a lot in my books is the distance, right, the emotional distance that is created between the parents and the children when the family's separated. So like with my family, you know, my, my father and then my mother came here and And my siblings and I stayed behind in Mexico because they couldn't bring us along with them and so my parents migrated first.

And so my siblings and I stayed behind under really difficult circumstances. And it's just that the trauma of that. of separation, living in fear that our parents would forget about us, that they wouldn't come back for us. And so that growing sense of feeling abandoned and feeling unloved, you know, I think to this day,  I still suffer from some of that.

Um, and then my family was very lucky in that eventually we were able to be reunited, but even after that reunification, things were not the same anymore. You know, my family was forever altered. change from that experience and my relationship with my parents was just never the same. We weren't able to overcome those years of separation, and obviously, you know, our immigration experience also affected our relationship in that when my siblings and I arrived in the U. S., we were immediately forced to assimilate, to learn English at the expense of our Spanish because we didn't have bilingual programs in our schools. And so, pretty soon, uh, language became a barrier. between us and our parents, and then, of course, education became a barrier because my parents only went to elementary school.

And so, as soon as I started junior high school, I noticed that there was this distance being created because of my education, and it got even worse when I got to college. There was also a lot of the stress involved, you know, because we were undocumented for a time and so I know my, my father was very, very stressed about our status, and so, he would often, You know, most parents would tell their Children have a good day at school, whereas my father would tell us, you better not say anything about how we got to this country because we might get deported.

And so he used to send us to school with a lot of fear. And so for a long time, like I, I didn't even want to talk to anybody because I was terrified that I was going to say something that would lead to our deportation. And so there was all these fear constantly hanging over us because of our legal status.

And then my father, because of that fear,  we wouldn't go anywhere, you know, we were often just at home. And He wouldn't really take us out. And so a lot of times, or he wouldn't let us go out, even out into the neighborhood. And so a lot of times we felt we were under house arrest that we can't go out anymore.

Whereas when we were in Mexico, we were safe to like go around the neighborhood and everybody knew us. And so there, there was some kind of freedom that we lost when we came here because of my father's fear of us getting caught and deported. So I think that there's so many things that add to that immigrant experience.

And there's like this trauma that gets compounded by all these other things. And so even though You know, those of us who, who are lucky enough to succeed, to make it to this country, you still continue to live with the realization that there's so many other kinds of borders to overcome, not just a geographical border, but there's, you know, the language borders, there's cultural borders, there's legal borders, and all kinds of borders that you have to face.

But, One of the things that I had to learn how to do was to reframe the way I saw myself as a border crosser, because for a long time, I was really ashamed of that experience, I was ashamed of being someone who had crossed the border. And then as I got older, I realized that that is the source of my strength, that that's my superpower, because I realized that if I could cross the border, the U. S. Mexico border, As a nine year old, that meant that I could cross any other border that was, you know, before me, that was keeping me from, from reaching my dreams and from becoming the person that, that I was meant to be. And so from that moment on, once I started reframing my immigrant experience from something to be ashamed about to something to be proud of.

Proud about I became empowered. Yeah, because it's like then you can look at it as a gift as opposed to a shame And and that you know that reminds me in in your second memoir you had a teacher marta who she you know said something to you to the effect that Being an immigrant being sort of a soul of two countries It makes you more rather than less and which correlates with what you're saying And I think that that is such a beautiful way to put it because it's like think of all of that experience all of that Wisdom gained really and I  mean there's trauma too and that you carry, you know As you said even still to this day, Right yeah, I think because When we immigrate, there's a lot of longing for what we lost, and I remember when I first arrived, even though I was very happy to finally be here and to finally have my dad in my life, I still thought about what I had lost. You know, I had left behind my maternal grandmother who was like, The sweetest woman I had ever met and she just, I missed her so much.

I also left behind my little sister. We weren't able to, to bring her with us. And so she stayed behind and I really miss my little sister. I missed the sense of belonging. You know, because in my community, yeah, we were really poor, but at least we belonged. And so I missed that. I missed the familiarity.

I missed that I knew everybody in the community and that they knew me. Whereas we had come to a place where people don't even talk to their next door neighbors, and I missed, you know, Being able to speak Spanish without feeling ashamed of speaking Spanish. And I missed my school and my teachers, you know?

So there was like so many things that I constantly missed. And so there was a lot of nostalgia. There was a lot of longing. And as the years went by, like I kind of struggled with that because I started feeling that as somebody who was now living in the U. S. I was often made to feel that I wasn't American enough, you know, uh, I was made fun of my accent when I spoke English.

 I wasn't familiar with the culture, with pop culture. with popular culture, mainstream culture. And so I often felt left out of that. And so I started to internalize this feeling of, that I wasn't enough, that there was now something wrong with me. And, and so I started feeling less. I started thinking about everything I was not, everything I had lost.

And when I met my teacher, Marta, at UC Santa Cruz, she really helped me. To, to help me see that instead of focusing on what I had lost, to look at what I had gained.  And as when she said, you know, now you're bilingual, now you're bicultural, you're binational. Like, you're not less, you are more. And, and to me, like, that was such a powerful moment because that is when I realized that I need to stop thinking about what I lost.

I need to stop thinking about what I'm not and instead, like, really focus and, and appreciate what I am now. And it's true. Now I am more than what I used to be. And that also leads me to, it wasn't just Marta, but it was also, you had other women professors who were very encouraging and inspirational for you and, and really like mentors as opposed to just being , you know, an ordinary teacher experience.

So what do you think in addition to that, what Marta told you, what are some, what are some of the other most important kind of things you gained from some of these women?  I feel so blessed that I had good teachers in my life. Like to this day, you know, Martha still,a  part of my life, Diana, my English teacher from my community college.

I mean, she's still here. We actually just went on a trip together last month to Greece. Cause Diana's Greek American.  And for a long time, she's invited me to go to Greece with her because she, she goes often and I had never been able to make it, but I finally made it last July and it was so special because, um, I brought my daughter with me and my daughter's also a writer.

And we went to the island of Idra, which is where Sandra Cisneros finished writing The House on Mango Street. And it was such a special trip because it was Diana who introduced me to Sandra Cisneros's work. She was the one who gave me a copy of The House on Mango Street, and I had not read it.  And I was 18 years old.

I had never, you know,  heard of Sandra and,  Diana was the one who gave me that book and it completely changed my life. And that's when I decided that I wanted to be a writer. And so being in this island of Idra, thinking about how Sandra was there all those years ago, finishing that book that has meant so much to me and to so many other people, especially being there with Diana. 

It, it felt like this, this is a full circle moment. But yeah, so Diana has always been such a big supporter of my work. My biggest cheerleader,  a mentor, and I know that she has made such a huge impact on my life because young people need mentors.  And having her as my mentor when I was 18 and having her guide me, it made a huge difference, especially when it came to higher education, because my parents wouldn't have been able to help me navigate, you know, college applications, going to university, all of those things. And Diana was the one who helped me decide what schools to apply to. She helped me fill out the applications and my personal statement. She helped me find scholarships also.

So when I transferred to UCSC, I had some scholarships to, to help me with my education. And she continued to, to mentor me from afar. And one of the special scenes in, in A Dream Called Home that I write about is when I graduated from UCSC and I became the first in my family to get a university degree.

And Diana was at my graduation because UCSC flew her up to Santa Cruz so that she could attend my graduation. And I got to give a speech about her at the graduation and she received that distinguished teacher award from UCSC. So that's, that was like one of my favorite moments to write about. Yeah.

That was awesome. When I read that, yeah. And, and then when you talk about the Greece thing too, it's, it's like I get this, you know, this, like you said, almost like a full circle, you know, universe is aligned kind of a feeling from these things where it's that, you know, her generosity and her kindness and guidance.

And then you get to have that you, you both have this like give and take beautiful relationship that goes on through your lifetime. I mean, it's, it's really beautiful. So yeah. So I'm going to jump a little bit. You mentioned that your, your parents obviously, as you said, they had an elementary school education.

They grew up very poor in Mexico and they just didn't have the opportunity. I mean, I know your, your father, he had to be working with his father, I think at a very young age. There was no chance that he could have continued his schooling. And then,  in the US,  they both came here.

They didn't speak the language. And I think your mom at some point, she did start to try to learn English, but I can't, I really can't even imagine as an adult trying to learn a new language in a new country. You know, bombarded with the cultural changes that you don't have your normal familiarity of the community.

And then on top of that, you actually don't speak the language when you're trying to go out in the world. So the challenges for the adults have to be really, really intense. But also there was, I think their own trauma. And their own struggles resulted in some behavior as parents that was not the best, right?

I mean, your dad was abusive and he was, he was an alcoholic and your mom, she, she didn't really necessarily show a lot of maternal, loving care. Would you say that's accurate? Yes, very accurate. So, so, you know, as you're navigating life and you're trying to find your way.

You're dealing with these kind of challenges of not necessarily having supportive parents and even your father being abusive, causing even more difficulty for you. I'm interested in when you look at it now from this perspective. Place in your life like there were good things about both of them and there were bad things So when you look at it now, how would you characterize the two of them now, is it is it still very complicated for you? Or do you have a different view on it than when you were growing up? It's definitely very complicated for me still but more with my mother, you know, my father passed away

And when my father passed away  It, it allowed me to then have a different relationship with him. Because I was able to, to work on letting go of the pain, you know, letting go of the resentment, and, and I still talk to my dad, actually, like a few days ago, I was like, thinking a lot about him and with my dad, there's always this wish that our relationship had been different because I think that we could have had a really good relationship, and I think that because when my father became ill with liver cancer, he completely changed that that year when he was dying, all of a sudden,  he became the father That I had always wanted him to be, you know, he became the father that really wanted to spend time with us to talk with us.

 I remember he started visiting me a lot and I was doing all this research on what he should be eating when you have cancer, like, what are some, some foods that would help you and like, I started doing all this research and we used to go grocery shopping together and I was cooking for him, like, really healthy stuff and,  I don't know, like those moments that we spent together were really special because for the first time, like I really felt he wanted to be a good dad.

He wanted to have a good relationship with us, but it was kind of late because he was dying. And, and so,  after he died, like I just decided that I couldn't continue to hold on  to all of that.  That pain and that, that resentment and some of that anger, and I couldn't keep judging him for what he was not, you know, and instead focus on, on the good things that he, he did give us.

And I've also learned to have a lot more compassion for him because, you know, some years ago when we were seeing the separations happening at the border wall. We're at the border where the kids were being taken away from their parents. And I remember that, um,  the attorney general or somebody was accusing the parents that saying that it was their fault.

That their kids were being taken from them, and that if they didn't want their kids to be taken from them, that they shouldn't bring them in the first place. And I was so angry on behalf of all those parents, that, that they were being blamed, you know, for what was going on. And it made me have so much more compassion for my father, because he was one of those parents that brought their children to the border and I just felt how unjust the world is and how,  how hard it must have been for my dad to make that decision, knowing exactly what he was bringing us to, you know, and yet he still did it. And all he wanted for us was to have a shot at having a better life. And so he took some really incredible risks and my heart really breaks for him being put in that situation. So with my father, I definitely feel that I have a much healthier, healthier relationship now, with my mom, you know, my mom's still alive and her health is not It's not very good, and so I see my mom, um,,  I still struggle a lot with thinking about how she used to be as a mom, and she was not there, you know,  physically for a time, but also emotionally through the years, and I feel like I still struggle a lot grappling with that.

With those feelings.  And I actually was just having those feelings last week during the, the Democratic National Convention when I was watching, you know, Kamala  Harris give her speech. And she talked a lot about her mother and what her mother taught her. And I was just sitting her, sitting there watching that speech, feeling so jealous  of her mother, that she had that kind of mother.

And I realized, man, when am I going to get over my mother issues?  Like I have spent my whole life feeling envy for other people's mothers. Like, I've had friends, or, you know, my parents. My, peers at school who would talk about  how their mothers were their best friends. Yeah. And I remember that constant envy that, that my friends had such good mothers.

And, um, and so as I was watching Kamala Harris go on and on and talk about her mother, here I am almost 49 years old and I'm still jealous.  Of other people's mothers, you know,  and I'm like, when am I going to get over this? Have you, have you found too that when you're just like sort of in society, there is this expectation that mothers are going to be like what you're talking about, you know, that they're maternal and they're the most loving and not all mothers are like that, you know, not all mothers are like that.

And so,  I think that could be hard too, because when you're  out in the world, it's like, There's an, I feel like there's an expectation. Do you agree that, that, you know, your mother is sort of the epitome of, this maternal unconditional love and caring and that you would have these certain feelings towards her, but when you can't have those feelings towards her, right?

You know what I mean? Does that make sense? It's like, you don't share that, what these other people are, are thinking of or talking about, even in the way that you, you know, You would like to love her in a certain way, but that's not possible within the relationship. Does that resonate? Yes. Yeah, for sure.

And I struggle with those feelings a lot. I think one of the things that do make things better for me is that I try to be, to my children, the mother that I wish I had. And so that has guided me from the very beginning, when I became a mom, was that I, I really wanted to, to be the kind of mother to my kids, where they could grow up, saying, nice things about me, you know.

Maybe one, like I was like, maybe one, one day when my daughter gives her speech, she could talk about what her mother taught her.  Yeah, yeah. And it's just, it's so sad to think that it's like coming to that acceptance that you'll never get that, I mean, the idea that your mom would suddenly change and become different and what you always wanted.

Do you think there's still a hope that you have that she might? No. No, I gave up that hope and I'm glad I gave that gave it up because I feel that that was part of the reason why I was struggling so much with my mom, because I was every time I interacted with her, I always expected her to behave a certain way.

And then I realized she's never gonna behave that way because that's not who she is. So I need to stop having these expectations that are so unrealistic, you know, and instead I have to just accept her for who she is. And if I can do that, then I feel like I could have a better relationship with her because then she will no longer disappoint me anymore.

You know? So once I kind of changed that mindset,  I have definitely had better interactions with my mom because I just let her be who she is. And actually she has surprised me. A few times, you know, last year in October, I went to a, a book award ceremony where two of my books received some awards.

And so I brought my mother with me and my mom was crying, uh, when they called me up on stage and I gave my, my thank you speech.  My mother was crying and then when I, you know, went back to my seat, she hugged me and she said, I'm so proud of you. And here I am, 48 years old, you know, and, and then I wanted to cry because when I was a, a young woman.

That's all I wanted from my mother. I wanted her to be proud of me. I wanted her to,  to see, you know, how hard I was working and to acknowledge  that I was a good daughter, that I was, I was doing things. And I had so much desire to make my mother proud. And I never heard those words from her until last year, and I'm 48 years old, and now I want to cry because I'm remembering that, you know.

I know.   It meant so much to me to finally hear that from her, and it meant a lot because a part of me I had told myself, I don't care, I had tried to harden myself and pretend that I didn't care, that I need, didn't need her approval, that I didn't need her, you know, to be proud of me.

And, and yet, when, once you finally said it to me, I realized how much I still did need it. And who, who was I kidding, like, I'm still that young girl who needs her parents approval. Yeah. Oh, yeah, that, that does, that hits me because it, you know, when I was reading your book knowing how hard you and your siblings were working, just trying to, just trying to do your best and especially  I'm thinking about when you were living with your dad and, and just how much you all wanted  your dad or your mom to just see you, acknowledge you, say they're proud of you, give you a pat on the back, and just that complete wall of silence or some negativity instead. It was painful. It was painful  to read. What do you think, like, I had this question popped up for me.

You talked about this sort of cycle of violence going, you know, from parents to children and then they do the same to their children. And I think it was like your stepmom said, When your father was abusive, she said, well, he doesn't know any better because he was treated that way as well.

And I think you kind of question in the book, well, then if he was treated that way, why doesn't he realize how horrible that is for us and stop? Some people do, some people do realize that and don't do it. And some people don't. And so that's, that is a big question. Is that something you've grappled with anymore or have any more insight into, looking at your father's behavior and thinking, why, why couldn't he say he was proud? Why did hit instead?, you know, yeah, no,  I definitely have more understanding because as a parent, I also kind of struggle with that.

 I actually wrote an essay recently where I'm exploring that cycle of violence and how, you know, it gets passed down right from one generation to another and how hard it is to break it. And like a lot of times, the abused child becomes the abuser, right? Or the victim becomes the victimizer.

And so, for me, like having grown up in that kind of, of environment, it definitely impacted me. And, you know, when I became a mom, that was something that I really struggled with because I did not want to be like my father and yet once I was, I became a parent, I struggled with disciplining because I didn't grow up with time out.

You know, or I'm going to take away your toy until you listen to me. I mean, I grew up being yelled at and being hit. And so as a, as a mom, when, you know, when my children will misbehave, my first instinct was, I gotta hit them and then it took a lot of a lot of like mental effort for me to to hold back and and think about it and or walk away or find a different way, you know, yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

I was reading about this and  I learned that people who grew up in abusive households are six times as likely to repeat that with their own children. And you know, I've been thinking about how when  you grow up in, in such a violent home, you're constantly in flight or fight mode.

And so that constant stress can really impact your brain and so then you don't really develop coping skills and you don't learn to regulate your emotions. You know, and so I thought a lot about my father because he grew up in an extremely abusive household and so much so that, one time he confessed to me that he had ran away from home when he was 17 because his parents abused him so much.

And I remember being so shocked when he told me that. Because I thought, wow, , and then you grew up to abuse your children in a way where they also wanted to run away from home, you know, yeah, so it's definitely, for me, it was important to finally break that cycle. But I, I really struggled and I went the other way where,  My siblings used to accuse me of being a total pushover because my kids would walk all over me  yeah, there's like, you're such a pushover,  like, well, I don't, I don't know, like, I don't, I don't, I don't know, when it comes to like disciplining, in my culture, in the Mexican culture, Disciplining is physical punishment, 

it's, it's not, you know, I'm going to give you a timeout. so, my husband, he didn't grow up in a abusive home. And so he was the one that has, has kind of modeled for me what, what it is to, to discipline, and he's the one that will take away. the phone or take away the toy, take away stuff like that.

And it's like, Oh, that's, that's how you do it. Yeah. But it's like, why, how would you know that? You know, how would you know that it's, that's not anything that you grew up around or, so it totally makes sense. And you speak about it so well. You really that really covered it and was really interesting to me to hear all that.

One of the things I'd like to ask is, there can be this, misconception that, you know, you get to the U S and you're like, oh, this is so amazing and such a wonderful place.

And Mexico isn't, or something like that. But I think it's, it's so true that there's a lot of beautiful things in Mexico. . And there's beautiful things in the U. S. and  there's positives and negatives in both places. But when you think back to your time in Mexico or any time you've gone back, what are some of the things that stand out to you as just really positive things about living there, about the culture, about the communities?

 I really liked how people are not so materialistic, the way we are here, you know, over here, if like our government makes it seem like it's patriotic for us to go and spend all this money, right? I mean, we're constantly being told that that's what we're supposed to do. And so, Here in the U. S. I feel like I have become very materialistic.  I focus on like really petty stuff like, Oh, I don't like the color of my curtains. So I'm going to go spend money and buy some new ones, you know, or Just things like that. And then when I go to Mexico, I just realize how people there are very humble and they are not focusing on the material stuff.

They're focusing on, you know, family, on community. And to me, that just, It's something that I, that I really appreciate. And I'm generalizing, I know not everybody's like this, but at least like with my family, something that I really like is how they just appreciate the time that they spent together and that, yeah, maybe, you know, they don't have a lot of money, but they, like, for example, if they want to buy some pizzas, they all pitch in  because food is so expensive there and everybody pitches in and then get together and they enjoy it again and enjoy their time together. And to me that that has always been something that I really love when I go down there because it just, it humbles me. And it forces me to see that sometimes over here I get so, so caught up on this rat race.

And yet over there, I realize that that's not what's important. It's about. Being with my family and really enjoying our time together and learning what I, what I should be valuing.

That's what I, I mean, I, I certainly pick up all that stuff. And I'm, I also, I just think there are all different cultures have some really beautiful things. And then there could be other things missing from different ones that you get in another one. So, yeah, so I think that that is always important to, to talk about.

One more thing is like in, in, in all of your writing, in your writing and writing your memoirs and just sort of laying it all out there. What happened and with your family and putting it just all out there.

What, what was that like? What's, what's that been like to, you know, talk about these things that, you know, a lot of times people be like, Oh, this should be a secret or private or shameful or whatever. But I love when people get to that point and so much of what the podcast is, is like getting to that point where you're just talking about it in an eloquent way so that other people can read it and can, feel that, that somebody else has gone through.

And it doesn't have to be exactly the same, but pieces of it or whatever that, that means something to people. So for you, what was that like? Like just laying it all out there in memoirs? Yeah, it was,  it's complicated because on one hand  it was very liberating  to be able to  write about these experiences that for a long time I felt very ashamed of  and I wouldn't talk about.

And yet to all of a sudden just put it down on the page and, and to  put it out in the world, you know, for people to, to read, it, for me, it, like writing this books almost felt like, like an, an act of, of rebellion of saying, no, I'm not going to be ashamed about these things. I'm actually going to be proud of them.

And I'm going to,   to, to release them into the world. At the same time, it was really scary to do that because you put yourself in a very vulnerable place. You know, you're writing about very private, intimate things. And. You worry about how people are going to judge you.  So, so that was very scary. I feel very, very vulnerable doing that.

But then, you know, when the books came out and people write to me and they send me emails or, or messages telling me how they saw themselves in my book and how they felt empowered when they read my books. Then to me, like, that just. really validates me and it, it encourages me to keep writing because I realized that  through, through these books that I write, I might make somebody feel less alone, you know?

And, and then I feel less alone too when I hear from people about how they connected to my work. Because then I feel that, literature can be a bridge. It can really, like, help us to overcome the distance between us. And it can make us feel connected. It can make us feel seen and heard. And so that, that has been really special to me.

Knowing that my books have landed into the hands of people who can see themselves in, in my books, who can relate to them, or who learned something new, you know, something that they didn't know, or also that it has allowed them to have more compassion and more empathy for the immigrants living in their neighborhoods.

So it's really, I mean, that's the power of storytelling, you know, it has that power to like heal us and to set us free and to also connect us to one another. And I'm thinking about how when you are in college and you first started in your creative writing and your initial creative writing professors were, Sort of like not, you know, they were pooh poohing your stories.

They were, you know, about, you know, about poverty in Mexico or about  separation between families and these and all these stories that to me are so So meaningful the ones that I most want to learn and read about and then to think that these some of these teachers were just not getting it and not seeing it and you could have With that sense of rejection, you could have just stopped, but you didn't, you know, you kept going and kept going.

I mean, what do you think it was? What, what do you think it was that kept driving you? Yeah. I mean, this is a very common experience. You know, um, when you talk to writers of color who went through writing programs, most of them will. I would probably say the same thing that they really struggled with their, in their programs because their professors or their peers did not understand or value the stories or the point of views, you know, that they were writing from.

And so having that experience myself. It was really difficult when I went through that, but at the same time, it was an important lesson to learn because I realized that my classroom environment was kind of similar to what we face as writers of color when we're out in the world, um, knocking on the doors of the, you know, publishing, because publishing is.

Mostly white, right? It's like over 80 percent white. And so the gatekeepers are white. And so when they, when we pitch them our work, oftentimes they also fail to understand our work, to find meaning in our work and, and value. You know, our work  and so those experiences that I had as a student prepared me for what was to come later on when I, started pursuing my, my writing career and the same tenacity, the same determination, that I had to learn as a student and I had to learn how defend my stories.

I had to learn how to stand by my stories. that's  basically, the same thing I had to do when, when I started knocking on those doors of the New York publishers. I had to stand up and I had to fight for my stories because I,  I believed in them and, and I, I felt that I was offering something to the world, you know, that I was contributing to American literature.

Because, immigration stories are the American experience, right? And so to me, like, I really felt that there was a place, there was a place for my stories  in the literary world. And so I was determined to, to fight for them. I'm so glad. I'm so glad because I think sometimes maybe there is this.

Well, in your professor's case, I really truly don't don't get it.  Not seeing the the value of these stories but you know for publishers they in the beginning they could be like Oh, they I think they falsely believe that there's they're looking for a mainstream Maybe more of a mainstream concept But it's like even like you said even if you can't directly relate to the story of immigration There are so many things in your stories that people can relate to, or as you said, learn from, and learn to empathize.

But you did eventually get a publisher, and that, I was, I loved reading about that.

When that happened in your book, that was, it was awesome. So awesome. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, no, that was one of the happiest days of my life. From my agent said, Oh, we have a book deal. I'm like, yay.  So amazing. Yeah. Yeah. It's been incredible. I mean, it's. My first book just turned 18 this summer, and I just couldn't believe it.

It's like, wow, I've been a published author for 18 years, and I'm still here. It's a struggle, but I'm still here, you know. Well, I mean, I love your writing. It's so beautiful and so well done and I just appreciate that you're out there and you're and you're still still going. 

Like you said, it is such a contribution to what's out there. And when, when you talked about it in your book and now, you know, you, you were like, there, there isn't this story. The story doesn't exist out there. I want to put this out there. We need more stories like this and you're absolutely right.

Well, thank you so much for being here today. Do you have anything else you want to make sure that we cover? Before we sign off. No, I mean, I think this has been such a good conversation. Thank you so much for all these thoughtful questions Oh, you're welcome. I mean I I I was before this I was like, okay Just try to keep it to like don't go crazy because I have so many questions, but I feel like we covered We covered, you know, a lot of good topics.

So, and like I said, you're, you're just so well spoken and I appreciate that you have, you have such a, I mean, in your writing, but also in your speaking, you have such a, uh, a wisdom, uh, about you. Oh,  oh, thank you. Yeah. Yeah. I'll tell that to my children. I'll tell them you said that.  Um, well, yeah. So I'll, I'll say again, thank you so much for being here.

I so much appreciate your time and you being here. And I just, I thank you so much. Oh, well, thank you.