Surviving Combat and Internal Battles

This is the Humancraft Podcast, and I'm your host, Beth Huddleston. Today I interview Ron Jansen. 

Ron is a Marine combat veteran and the author of a memoir titled, "An Otherwise Healthy Person: a Marine's Story of Going to Fallujah and Fighting to Come Home."

In our interview, he discusses his deployment to Fallujah during a time of intense fighting between the U. S. military and the Al Qaeda backed insurgency, the challenges he faced when he returned home and was confronted with his own internal battles, and his ultimate awakening to his authentic self.  

 Ron, thank you so much for being here. Yeah. Glad to be here. Thanks for having me. Your book is called an otherwise healthy person. And  I'm going to jump in right away with that title because I think that's a really interesting title  what does that mean to you? Where did that come from? Sure. That's a good question.  Through the process of writing, I had several different titles in mind and,  I didn't like any of them.

So there was a section that I wrote and it was actually towards the back of the book or one of the last things I wrote and I shared it with a friend of mine, it was just a, it was actually the, piece that's, I think,  after the foreword but right before, , the book starts, that has that line in it, an otherwise healthy person.

It's about, really,  the fragility of life but also the, vibrancy of life. But that line in it, an otherwise healthy person, I felt like it summed it up pretty well where, for me, it was almost like. Well, other than that, everything's fine, which really means nothing's fine. And, it just stuck out to me and it stuck.

 I think it just kind of points to the, it's behind the scenes or what's underneath the surface. That's where real life happens. Not always what we, we show everybody.  Yeah. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense to me.

And that, that's what, you know, a lot of these interviews I do, that's so much of a theme , is what's under the surface or what people don't talk about. So I do want to talk about Fallujah because,  I had gone to Jordan and talked to Iraqis, years ago, shortly after you were in Fallujah.

And I met some men from Fallujah there and they were pretty, , frustrated with the situation in Fallujah. But Fallujah  did seem to be distinctly intense in terms of the fighting between the insurgents and the military and Iraqi police or whoever else was involved.

So when you went there, I want to make sure everybody understands that's a pretty intense situation. It's not like you're sitting around, , just monitoring or policing people going through checkpoints, so tell me about that. Tell me about what that was like.

Sure, sure, we got to the country in September of 2006. And so if you think back a few years, the initial invasion was 2003.  And then the big battles in Fallujah happened in 2004, um, in April of that year, and then, the big, I think the battle that most people think about was November of 2004. 

And that's where they did a full city clearing exercise, a lot of casualties on both sides, but essentially took it away or took Fallujah away as a stronghold, for the insurgents.  But then there was still a ton of activity in the area. I did, you know, a lot of the people were just pushed out and came back in.

And that's, that was a situation when we got there where, there was really fighting in and around the city every day, , and the insurgents at that point had kind of morphed into a, Al Qaeda backed group, that was, or that was the main insurgency group there, that we were fighting against that had some support from the local population, but a lot of it was just, you know, They were indifferent.

they wanted to stay out of the fighting between the U S and the insurgents. ,  it was definitely intense. I mean, the first day I went out on patrol, we, , had an IED blow up in front of the Humvee, and then started taking fire shortly after that. It was a pretty intense situation and one that, we were, I think we knew that it would be that when we got there, we were definitely warned ahead of time, but  It was even eye opening for us when we got there first.

And so, so basically we've got like the, let's say ordinary Iraqi civilians, and then we've got the insurgency and you said like an Al Qaeda sort of backed thing at that point. So  they know the land, they know the terrain and they're all sort of living amongst it, 

so, so tell me about that. Working within that terrain that you're not familiar with. They are. How did that play into everything? Sure. Yeah. Well, it was, it was confusing, at times, one of the things that I think was really beneficial to us is we had, by that point, the, the, , tactics or the overall strategy  had shifted to what they called counterinsurgency.

And it really was based on the fact that the. the people, the local population that is the, , I guess the end goal is to stabilize and get the support of them because without their support, we, you know, we could not be effective. , and so even  some of the local population were insurgents or did fight , against this from time to time.

But,  really gaining the trust and respect to them, was top on our list. The way we were broken up where our battalion was broken up, my company was just across the bridge or just across the Euphrates river from the city of Fallujah.

So we were operating in more like a suburban or rural setting than a few of the other companies that were directly in the city. And we passed through the city and did different things. But ours was a little bit more, it reminded me a little bit of where I grew up in the country where, there was some corn, alfalfa, that sort of thing.

 But it just got to be a big part of our focus and our tactics were just going out, talking to the people, understanding who lived, where, who did what, and gaining a deeper understanding of  the local population because then we could understand, okay,  what's the power structure and also how can we help support those who would be likely to help us or support us and then also find out who the insurgents are and get information that way.

So what did you find when you did go out and speak to the local population? What did you find the reaction to be,  it was varied. I think most were hesitant. Like you mentioned, in your book, the, people you spoke  with from Fallujah were pretty wary and skeptical.

And if you think about it from their perspective,  even those who were completely neutral or even those who might've, , supported us from the start. They had been through three years of really, really tough, tough conflict and just instability. And also if you think about the rotation of how military units rotate in and out, , on deployments, it's every six or 12 months, it's a new group of Americans showing up to say, Hey, we're here to help, but we're here to support, thankfully the units that had come before us had already started building some of that groundwork.

So even though we were different faces, they still understood that. Okay, if if I respected the people that were here, I should respect these people or, you know, sometimes I didn't respect the people that were here before and I don't respect you.  But it really very quickly got down to the human level.

A big part of, what we would do almost on a daily basis was called census patrols, which was really just going out and talking to people saying, Hey, who lives here? What do they do? How are you doing? What do you need? And we heard many of the same complaints that, people that you spoke to had, Hey, we don't have good electricity or consistent electricity. Our water system or whatever, has been out of commission. We can't get the things to fix it. it was a lot of, more than like large, high level strategic, or ideological issues.

it was like, we need these things to be able to live and to provide for our families. What can you do about that? Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense because it was so, torn apart,  they just did not have the infrastructure anymore. The access to jobs or any, anything like that.

So a lot of people were really struggling. So tell me a little bit about, , in your book, you mentioned things about deployment. Where really, really, there's some really frustrating issues, you know, like, um, you know, you talked about when there would be, like a roadside  bomb , would go off or maybe you find one that hasn't and you have to sort of stand around. And you have to wait for this crew to come in and clear the area. The US military standing out there waiting for hours, potentially, 

 it sounded like it could be four hours. It could be eight hours. So you're really vulnerable.  There's other things, like the food isn't great, there's a lot of waiting around, there's packing into these vehicles together.

You describe these Amtrak vehicles where it's like your crew, they're in there and they, I bet they can barely breathe. They can't see, get fresh hair. they're all packed in there. You know, all these sorts of things that's trying, I think,  for people. And so tell me about that a little bit.

Sure. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Several of the things you mentioned there. First of all, . So throw a lot of acronyms out there, so I apologize, but explosive ordinance disposal where the people that are EOD, we call them. We're the people that would respond to these IEDs, or,  or improvised explosive devices.

And we understood the necessity for it, because they would either, if we found it, , you know, if we found one before it blew, they could send up a robot and put a charge on it and take care of it that way, or dig it up, whatever. And so we understood the need for it, but it was also, yeah, , , once we did that, we were essentially responsible for staying there, also securing the area so civilians didn't come in, that sort of thing.

but at that point we were, we were stuck in place, and vulnerable to attacks or, , whatever it was. So , that could be frustrating. I think part of it was just understanding the necessity behind it because we couldn't just leave it. , and also. We did talk a few times about, Hey, maybe we just blow this up ourselves and save everybody the trouble.

But even that, probably wasn't the best option, even though we thought about it. And I think also we saw, if you saw it from the EOD technician or the explosive ordinance disposal people, they were basically had a job where they just crisscrossed all around Fallujah in the different areas between basically, Hey, they found something over here, let's go find it or let's go check it out.

And then go to the next place in the next place. , so they were constantly responding to that sort of thing, and to be honest, I think , their job was probably tougher cause they were constantly going into areas that they didn't know that weren't secured in that sort of thing, where at least we understood it a little bit, , you know,, when it comes to Amtraks, if you read the book, you see, I don't give them a lot of credit, the tracker crews and it's probably mutual, but we have a bit of a rivalry between the infantry and in the people that drive us around, but, Yeah, I think a lot of it's uncomfortable and miserable.

A lot of it has to do with the people you're with. And, I think it's two things. You just kind of have that bond that misery creates when you're all together. And also if there's somebody there that's slightly more miserable than you are, it kind of makes you feel a little bit better. And usually you have at least one of those people with you as well.

 So that, that helps a little bit. Yeah. I do understand what you're saying that the EOD crew, like they're, they've got a tough job. I guess what, part of what I'm saying too, is, that's got to sort of build up like a sense of, frustration and also exhaustion and constantly being vigilant.

So you're standing there, you know that you need to wait and it makes sense that they need to come and clear the area, but, you're probably vigilant the whole time. You can't just, Sit, sit tight and be like, okay, we'll just have a break, you know, so I feel like it's especially the way it was in Fallujah, the way you described it in your book, it sounds like a constant vigilance.

I mean, almost all the time. So if you can look back on it now. the way that it was then, how would you describe that? , what is that like living like that? Yeah, it's, , that's a really good question. I've needed some time. I don't know. It's been, I think 17 or 18 years since I've been there.

So,  I've needed some time and distance to even recognize it because I think at the time it just becomes second nature, , that you just carry it's, uh, I, I don't know the best way to describe it. It is just a constant kind of tension you carry with you. Yeah, because you just don't know what's going to happen.

You have to be prepared for anything to happen or, or most things at least.  And that's, that can be tough. And even when we were back at our forward operating base, we were at a small base with just a platoon. So there was 40 of us there. , even there, it didn't really feel, you know, it was relatively safe compared to everywhere else we were going.

But even there, it was like, well, we've got to make sure that we constantly have people on watch. And, we could get mortared or have a rocket attack or really anything happened. So,  I think that's that kind of constant vigilance is one of the things that can be difficult to let go of when you get back or once you're out of that sort of situation, because, , you really have to, you know, even unconsciously train your body to just be like that all the time.

And you don't even recognize that you're operating with that are at that level of  vigilance. And then when you when you step out of that, it's just natural that it continues. And you're constantly still looking for the same threat level, even though it's probably decreased.

Right, right. And so,  let's talk about that when you did come back to the U S I think it was seven months.  In Fallujah and then coming back to the U S.  I feel like, there is, and you mentioned in your book, but also I can totally understand how there is a sense of purpose.

, a big picture, sense of purpose when you're there  and you've got , your team of guys and you're  leading them and you're trying to stay alive basically and do good work, . And then you come back to the U. S. and it's like there's a safety here, but then also  it's not the same level probably of a sense of purpose.

So, what was that like yeah, it's, this is something I've had to have some time to reflect on as well. And, and the writing process I think was helpful just to make me really think about it.  But looking back on it now, I see, I was actually excited to come back to the US.

I was a reservist, so I had a full time job and, and everything back here. And  I was ready to just get back to it. I was kind of , sick of war after all of that. And so I looked forward to it, but then coming back, I think I found that I just, some of it was that vigilance, some of it was just like the lack of intensity.

Like , Here in the U. S., regardless of, what happens,  it's a pretty easy life. And, and that's, you know, I looked forward to some of that. But I also just found,  there were things I just wasn't, I felt I should be excited about or interested in or, um, and other things where I was just kind of like, ah, this is, you know, this is what it is.

I I just had a hard time really, you know, come into grip with that. And it didn't mean that I thought, well, I think I should go back. You know, I had the option to re up my contract and try to go back or whatever. And, and I didn't, I didn't think that that was what I was called to, but, but also I think I just found, it felt a little bit like, it felt like I was in between the two extremes, like the very peaceful, comfortable life we have in the U S and then also just The complex but intense, combat situation, I didn't really feel like I fit in either of those.

 And so it, it's taken a while for me to really, adjust to that and understand what, , what it is that, , I should be doing, which I'm, I'm still trying to figure that out. Yeah. I think, I think that makes a lot of sense. I totally understand that. And,  I think sometimes people are, are like you use the phrase called to, they're kind of called to.

Yeah. having a purpose that maybe it's not that you don't find purpose in your normal life and in your Children and , your marriage and all this. It's not that, but it's just that maybe there's something even more that a certain person might want to be doing,  on top of that.

And So I get that. And  the Iraq experience was so extreme and , like you said, you didn't want to go back there, but it's like, , missing something, just don't know what it is kind of thing. . Yeah. I get that. So ,, one of the other questions I have for you is  when you were there,  , you, you had talked in your book about how, , growing up,  war was like, you go to war and you do your duty and you fight and it's 

something that I don't want to say necessarily look forward to, but feels really important and like a good thing. And I feel like to some degree. When you were back and things kind of changed in Iraq after you left and maybe backslided a bit, you just were a little bit soured on that.

So tell me about that. Like, how did it change your thoughts on war before and after? Sure, sure. So yeah, it was something, I mean, from the youngest age I can remember, I was just fascinated by the military and war and conflict. I'm not sure why.  So, , going and doing what I did, it felt like that was kind of a, , a logical continuation of that. 

and I think, I mean, a couple of things you said is first. While we were there, we actually saw quite a bit of improvement. I mean, we, when we first arrived in late 2006, , it was a, it was a tough situation and, and really even the intelligence analysts were kind of saying, Hey, , Ambar Province, which Fallujah was a part of, and Ramadi  is basically a loss.

There's, there's nothing we can do.  But while we were there, the local tribes, , or some of the local tribes started to work with us and basically allied themselves with us versus, the Al Qaeda backed insurgents. And that made a huge difference because they understood the terrain. They understood the people and the population.

And some of their people were fighting against us. I mean, it was a strange situation to have, you know, former insurgents,  or they, we assumed or knew we're now on our side. And so when we left, we had a pretty good sense or, yeah, I think we felt pretty good about what we were able to accomplish and, and the situation there.

And it really was much more stable, for three or four years after that, but then eventually, with the rise of ISIS in Syria and then in Iraq,  ended up the, the same, which was essentially the same people were fighting against Al Qaeda in Iraq, morphed into ISIS eventually. They eventually were able to come back in and take over.

And essentially everything we had fought for , was reversed. , and that was tough. I think, , in my, in the toughest times, I was, I was pretty bitter about it because it was like, what, what was the point? And  it cost me far less than many people. I mean, some people were killed, some people were wounded severely.

And, you know, so many more things, but it was still just really difficult to say, okay, we did all this, but for what? It's hard to say  what the benefit was or whether we should have done it at all. So that, that was tough. I still think, um, you know, if I get really philosophical.

I don't see a world or a time when war isn't necessary at some point, because there will always be, countries or people that try to take advantage of anybody through the use of force. And the only way to prevent that as force is from what I've seen.  But it, it kind of makes it much more difficult to see, okay,  we've got to be very careful about , what we enter into because there will be people that volunteer and,  it will go and we've got to make sure that we're, we're doing it in the right way and for the right reasons.

Yeah, definitely, and one of the things that's related to that is that I wonder, I wondered when I read your book, there would be, there's going to be natural inefficiencies or not understanding, culture or those sorts of things when you go into another country.

 But  if you look back now, are there certain things that you think, Oh, if we had had this, or if we had understood this better,  we could have worked more efficiently. Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, there's probably always some things,  I guess maybe to say it a different way while we were there, it didn't feel like there was any one specific thing or, or that we were missing, whether it was equipment or technology or, you know, Or support or anything like that.

I mean, after three years, of war, the military had a really good support,  system and, they were pretty proficient at getting us what we needed out there. 

I do think coming back. one of the things that would still be helpful and I think it's one of the things I kind of have started to wade into the discussion on is, say what do you want about the VA, the Veterans Administration and the health care, , that they provide, but I think there's a pretty, pretty, I'm trying to think of the right word, un nuanced or misunderstood perspective on post traumatic stress and also PTSD, but, you know, post traumatic stress disorder.

So the military's done a lot to say, Hey, there shouldn't be a stigma on this.  People could struggle and they, they do with this sort of situation, but , the va their, you know, from what I've seen and, and from people I know, their main method of treating it is to say, okay, here's a disability check and here's the medication.

Like, you're, you're now disabled essentially. And, we'll send you medication every month. So that takes away. To me, that's, that's very far off from the, the,  I think the appropriate or the, the effective response to that sort of thing. First of all, understanding, if you experience post traumatic stress, it doesn't mean you necessarily have a disorder.

It can become a disorder, but it's just natural, that certain stimulus would create a response in you. If you hear a loud noise for the last 12 months, that meant that you were under attack. Now it doesn't, but your,  your body and your brain don't necessarily catch up with that.

And most of the things I've seen from, the military healthcare establishment are , pretty ineffective at actually, helping Marines or soldiers or, sailors actually deal with it and understand a healthy process forward through that. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's the thing. I mean we touched on it, but that, that whole concept of  being there and coming back and actually, let me jump around a little bit,  you talk in your book and you mentioned here, there's a bond, between you and your guys there.

And then, I think that's maybe part of a transition , it's not that you want to be around each other constantly, like you were, and, rushed into these small spaces, but  When you're back in the U. S.,  it's a different, it's not necessarily  a community oriented situation like it, it is when you're in that,  so, how, how is that to adjust to, like, where you have that intense bond and then you're just kind of not around that anymore?

Yeah, that's a good question.  It's tough and actually one of the things I know, I think it was a learning from like the Vietnam War,  So, , as I understood it back then, , if you had a one year enlist or a one year deployment to Vietnam, you basically went and joined a unit that was already over there and fighting.

And then when your 12 months was done, you just left and you came back. , so that was a solo endeavor. , you got on a plane, you came back and you were basically now not in the war, but, but back home. , and that was really, really hard for people to adjust to. So now, , the way it works.

for Iraq for the most part, not for everybody, but like we went as a unit, , as a full battalion of, , I don't know, you know, 800 or something, we all went together and we all came back together. And then I do know when we came back, we spent probably almost a, it was an excruciatingly long time. I think it was three weeks or something, , in 29 palms, California, which is a Marine Corps base.

Where it was just kind of decompression, like we were all together. We had a couple of things, a couple of mandatory trainings a day. , but it wasn't much. And it was really just a chance to kind of adjust back somewhat with the people that we had  had gone over there with.

But once you leave that and you go home, like I think all of us desire to just be away from each other and be, and be,  with our families or friends or whatever.  But I think over the long term that becomes, that can become very isolating. , I was fortunate when I came back, I was married already, , came back to my wife.

I jumped back into work, , and other things. Some of that was, I think I put in the book that, , looking back, I think I, I jumped into those things because I just wanted to leave everything behind. , but in a way that was good because it brought me into community and family and things like that. , for a lot of people, I think their experience is they come back, they're not quite sure how to connect  back with friends or whatever,  and then their experience was so intense that they can't really relate it to people that might ask , and so eventually they just kind of pull out of those sorts of situations and then can become very isolated.

, actually one of the things I write about too is, , so Josh Niss, he was one of the guys in my squad. Um, he was pulled out essentially in the middle of a firefight, , because his wife was, was, , injured in a bad car accident , and a few of his kids were with her. , so he had to come back to the U.

S. And so he was pulled out of this situation where he was with us, you know, we were in combat and he got on a helicopter and, and came back home. And I know his, , his experience has been very different from the rest of us because the rest of us went through the rest of it together and experienced it together and came back together.

, where he was already back here and, , I think. In a lot of ways, that just makes it much more difficult to go that through that alone. And then also, you know, he went from one really intense situation to another. , that's pretty difficult , to process that sort of thing. Oh yeah. That, when I read that in the book, you just think, oh geez, this guy, like that's, that was a lot.

That's a lot to deal with. so when you, are back now and you have that bond with those guys,  do you guys still stay in touch ever? we do not as much as I would like to. , but we do, yeah, especially since we were a reserve unit, you know,, the majority of us lived in the same area.

That's just kind of way, the way it works, it's the local town and, it's the people that live around there.  So we're probably more connected than some of the more, , active duty units where it could be people from all over the country that, you know, , that are brought together.

So we get, we try to get together at least a couple of times a year. , a few of us are closer but we do, we have a squad group chat that, we get going every once in a while on the, either the Marine Corps birthday , or some other events. , and it is, it is interesting. I've talked to somebody else about this, like being back with the guys that were in my squad, like. 

It, it's not conscious and I don't think about it, , until afterwards, but like, , all the same exact dynamics are there, both good and bad, , when we get together. , it's a lot of fun, my, my wife usually has to remind me that I, I need to stop swearing when I come back and those sorts of things, , cause I kind of just get back into that mode, but.

, yeah, I, I actually have been trying to think and find ways to stay more connected with them. , because it's, , I think it's good for all of us. And I think maybe my, my goal for myself is to , show up as the person I am now a little bit more than the person I was back then, which, , I haven't found a way to effectively do that yet, but I'm, I'm working on it. 

Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. And that, that leads me to another question I have, which is , you talk in your book about how you  had sort of an awakening at some point , you know, you kind of went through a difficult time in your marriage and it led you to, , really have to look at everything.

over your life to that point and how you had been operating. , and you talk about how you really didn't let yourself experience emotions. You had real, real closed off. And then after that, you started to really open up. , and then ultimately, you know, resulting in you writing this book.

And that's so much of what I love to, , talk to people about in this podcast. So  tell me a little bit about that. The way you felt you were then, , versus now in terms of experiencing your emotions or  all of that. Sure. I think for me As long as I can remember, I've been uncomfortable with emotions.

Like it just always, it's always felt, you know, I couldn't control it. I couldn't understand it. , and so I just tried to distance myself as much as possible. And in a lot of things in life, you can, you can do that, , and you're rewarded for it when it comes to  school or work or other activities.

Like if you can just stay logical, don't let your emotions get in the way. Yeah. and focus and perform. That's actually what we need to do a lot of times. , and so I was already, I already had that bent before joining the Marines and the Marines really accentuated that for me because it was, , it is a huge part of your training and also just the culture and what's necessary to operate in combat is to be able to put those things aside.

Like just, , rely on your training and , do what you need to do. Don't think about whether you're. You're scared or tired or hungry or angry or whatever, like all those things don't matter, you just need to do what, , what you have to do. And so I think for me, , going through the experience in the Marines and coming back, it, it kind of, for me, just solidified, okay, that's the right thing to do.

I don't need to worry about the rest of this because, , being logical and task driven has served me well up to this point in my life. and I don't, I don't need to worry about it. But yeah, , over time, I think so first , having children changed that a little bit for me, or at least, , cracked open my armor a bit just because that, , was a place where I, you know, I did have a desire to connect with these tiny people that were in my life and I really liked them.

 But then, , yeah, going through some really difficult struggles. I finally got to a point where I just realized I couldn't, I think I, I didn't realize how much emotional and mental energy it took for me to just try to control that all the time.  Somebody described it once as trying to hold  a beach ball under the water, like you can do it, but it, at any point, if you slip, it's going to come popping out somewhere.

 And that's what it. That's what it felt like. And especially at first it was really, I mean, it was more terrifying than combat for me was to try to understand this. Cause I didn't, , it was like a foreign language to me where these, , kind of things that I was feeling. , but then when I,  stopped trying to control, I realized like they were less, less powerful and less controlling of me.

And it's still a journey I'm on because I don't fully understand it. , but , , I think another thing that I said earlier is that , , when I first came back for a while, it was like, it felt like everything was just blah. It was not, , I wasn't that excited about anything. I wasn't that upset.

, but , I think I've realized when I stopped trying to level out my emotion, emotional state , , at all times. , and allow myself to feel grief if I need to, or feel sad or, or excited about something. I found , I have a much broader spectrum of things I can appreciate than if I just try to keep it level.

Because if I don't let myself feel negative emotions, or if I ignore those, I don't really feel the full spectrum of positive emotions either. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. So that, that really has to be life changing when you're around your kids or your wife or just  to be able to really experience more.

Yeah, it, , it has been, , and I think, , again, I don't do it perfectly and I still have my, my natural tendency is to just, , push those things aside most of the time. But, , yeah, I think it's, it's made me, I  think my family would agree. It's made me a better father and husband. Yeah, I think it's making you a better person either way.

So you talked at the very end of your book about  sharing your story and, and you talked about shame, , feeling shame, just kind of revealing all this stuff about yourself and 

having to contend with that, but then, , sharing it anyway, because you feel the call to do that. , I think that's a common feeling for people who get to a point  in their personal development where they are like, I have this, this poll to do this, and I feel like this is the right thing to do, but it's also scary and uncomfortable.

, I don't know if people always realize that when people are putting themselves out there creatively. , that they don't feel always like a hundred percent super comfortable about this, , it's just more of a, like, I'm pulled, I'm called to do this. , so tell me about that. , what was that feeling for you to kind of write the book, put it out there, , and deal with that?

Yeah. it was challenging. What I, what was really interesting is I found like it was very easy. Well, yeah, for the most part, it was easy for me to write about the combat stuff. , I think I've had a long enough time and distance from it that I was more looking back from it now And and I think now I understand it was me processing everything that happened a few people You know, if you if you talk to people before you write a book it people who know how to write books They'll say okay You start with your audience in mind and then work towards that and you got a you know Everything you write is geared toward your audience and I I think I didn't do any of that because my audience was basically just me, , trying to process everything that happened.

, but then when it came to the more personal things, relationship, and even just my own internal struggles, that was, that was really hard to write. , and like you said, , there's things in there that I'm not proud of, or that I'm, , I'm embarrassed by, or, , feel shame about, but I also know that, , my friend Matt Kenny will tell me, , the antidote to shame is vulnerability and community, like acceptance and, you know, being able to just be real and authentic and then having people be there with you and accept it.

And, and writing a book is not necessarily community because it's just, , you're putting it out there and someone reads it on their own. but for me, it was a step towards that.  ,  that, that last, the conclusion or, , epilogue, , that was the last thing I wrote.

And it was the only thing I wrote  sequentially  in the book, like everything else I started in chapter seven and I wrote the first part and then I, I went all over, but the epilogue was the last thing I wrote. And so it was the hardest thing to write because it's like trying to come up with a conclusion 

for everything. , but as I was doing that, it really did hit me,  for first that, , it felt like, you know, this was one of the things, , things I was called to do. And then second, it felt like, I think I actually, once I finished it and was , , ready , to work with somebody to publish it, it felt very similar to how I felt before I went to Iraq or as we were getting ready to go.

Like it, I told my wife, like, I don't think I will die if I publish this, but I feel like I will. Like that's what it felt. , and actually we took, we paused for a little bit, , and just said, Hey, I want to make sure, , between my wife and I, that we were ready  to publish this. But I kind of got to the point where I thought that is what needs to, you know, that is the next step for me.

And I don't know what will happen after that, but I just need to be, I get called to be real with where I am right now. , yeah. And, , yeah, so I got over it and eventually hit publish. But isn't that interesting? It's like that, it's that intense of a sort of fear, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that that is like putting yourself out there, being vulnerable, all of those things, , telling your story, you know, your book is really good and I hope people read it and it has so much good stuff in there and it's well written.

And so it's such a good thing to do to put it out there. But then there's that, there's that other part that is  so, so terrified. So it's, it's an interesting, that's just an interesting concept.  I hope people understand, you know, when people are kind of like mean on social media and I'm like, , it's not that easy for people to put stuff out there, , like content out there or whatever.

And you're like, Oh man, give them a break. You know,  Yeah. And then, , one more thing,  I kept thinking , while I was reading your book that, , there was like this sort of how I saw it as like a, , like the black and white thinking concept. How you were and then more of a gray area thinking, , and so that's such a thing that I'm interested in and that we talk about in the podcast, I think is, is that  things have , so many gray areas. It's not, , us against them and this person's good and this person's bad kind of a thing.

They tell me about that. Does that resonate with kind of how. You think you shifted or what, the way you see things now? Yeah, definitely. I would say in my younger, even before I was in the Marines, I think I had a very black and white view on the world. , and you know, part of that is just inexperience.

, but then going over to a situation, , I think I put it in the book where, , Colonel Larry Nicholson, when we first got there, he was in charge of the entire regimental combat team in and around Fallujah. Yeah. , and, , was just a very intense and serious guy. , he said, Hey, if you're looking for a black and white fight,  we don't have it here.

And this is nothing but shades of gray. , there are good bad guys and bad, bad guys and bad, good guys. And, we're just here to, to do everything we can to improve the situation. And so, That was one step for me, but then also, yeah, I think I see the world in a much more nuanced view, , today than I did in the past.

, and, , it's actually a much more interesting view if you think about it that way, , because it's not just all one thing or all the other. , and so I'm still, , kind of learning to appreciate that and understand it even more, because maybe if you take it from black and white, it's not just gray, it's all the other colors in the spectrum that are out there.

Yeah. , and that, , it actually makes it a lot more interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Well,  do you have anything else, , that you want to make sure we talk about today? One thing I was thinking though, , if anybody does read my book, one, I think what's been interesting is just having different lenses to view this sort of situation at, the conflict in Iraq, and there's a ton of Of good books out there, but , I will give a plug for your book out of iraq just because it is  an interesting view because you know We had our situation that we saw on the ground and you saw you were talking to people that had experienced it , it also were , essentially forced out and then one other book that has been really interesting recently ,  i've gotten to know kale a little bit the guy who wrote this.

, it's called the mirror test And , that's fascinating just because he was a State Department, , employee who was assigned to the Marines in Fallujah and he was there for I think three or four years and including the time I was there. And it is a fascinating view just because he had a perspective on what was going on in Washington and in the government, but then also was deeply embedded with the Marines in Fallujah.

He sort of became native. , they say, and like attached himself to the Marines. And then, but he also had a really interesting perspective, , from the Iraqis that he worked with and, was able to build relationships there. So I think that's , the thing I've taken away from this is like, , I've had my own small view of this for a long time.

And, it's been really interesting to expand outside of that. And it doesn't really change what I experienced, but it does give me a little bit different look on, , Or, yeah, a different perspective on, , the different viewpoints of what was going on there. That's good stuff. Awesome. Well, yeah.

, thank you so much for your time today. Thank you for talking about this. , I really appreciate, , what you wrote in your book and what you said today. I think it's all really meaningful stuff. So thank you so much. Yeah. Thanks. I really appreciate being on.